LEE BRUCH PAGE
Lee Bruch [lbruch@nwlink.com]

 

GEORGE DILLMAN, SON ANDREW from Lee Bruch [lbruch@nwlink.com]

Yes, the information has some internal discrepancies ... there are various places in my mother's notebooks where they all appear ... and some of them conflicts with information from the pension application. I have not yet attended to sorting all of it out, her notebooks and documents will take a year at least to go through.

Like my post hinted, I believe that there could be both a PA/OH Michael Seller/Zeller and a separate KY one.

I don't know if this will work on the listserv, but attached is a scan of photo we have of Rebeca Staley Sellers b. 1823 d. 1902, *believed, maybe incorrectly* by my family to be granddaughter of "our" Michael Sellers and Catherine Dillman Zeller.

-----Original Message-----
From: sellers-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sellers-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Michael Sellers
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 12:17 PM
To: sellers@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: [SELLERS] GEORGE DILLMAN, son Andrew 1753 to Bracken C o., KY

Lee,

Great information. Thanks for sharing this and taking the time to hammer it
out.

There seems to me, though, to be some discrepancies in some of the data
regarding Catherine Dillman and husband Michael Sellers/Zeller.

You first shared the following:

Michael Sellers, b. 5 May 1747 in Heidelberg Twp., Berks, PA, d. 4 June 1836, married on 20 Dec 1786 in Lebanon Co., Heidleberg Twp PA. to Catherine Heidel Dillman, b. 1763, d. 1860.

In the FOOTNOTE section, you then shared this:

Catherine (Heidel) DILLMAN, b. 1763, d. 4 June 1836, married on 20 Dec 1786 at Berks, Heidelberg Twp, PA (but see item (h) below) to Michael SELLERS / ZELLER (b. 5 May 1747 in Heidelberg Twp. PA, d. Dec. 1824, moved from PA to OH abt 1814-1817).

In comparing the two pieces of information for presumably the same people,
Michael Sellers and wife Catherine Dillman, Michael's DOB is the same, however,
his DOD is different (4 June 1836 vs. Dec. 1824). Likewise, Catherine's DOB is
the same (1763), however, her DOD is different (1860 vs. 4 June 1836). I think
on that one you put Michael's DOD in by mistake for Catherine.

You also stated that Michael "moved from PA to OH abt 1814-1817" and then stated
the following later on:

Our family's historic belief is that he was born in PA to a family that
originated in the Palatine (variously under the control of Germany or France),
emigrated originally to upstate New York with the Palatines in 1709, thence to
Schoharie NY, thence to Berk Co. PA, thence to OH, thence to IN. We have never
understood a KY connection. However, given how people wander and move, even
then, it's quite conceivable.

To my understanding, the "never understood KY connection" is actually where
Michael and Catherine married, settled, and never left. Michael Zeller/Sellers
was given Bounty Land in, I believe, Bracken County, Kentucky, due to his
Revolutionary War service.

Michael and Catherine were married in Bourbon County, KY, (not PA) on December
20, 1786, by Rev. James Scott before removing shortly thereafter to Bracken
County, KY, where, in Catherine's words, they remained until Michael's death on
June 4, 1836. Thus, they did not remove to Ohio nor to Indiana at any point.
A copy of the Marriage Record was included in Catherine's Pension
Application. The fact they were married in 1786 would indicate that Catherine
did not know Michael during his time of service during the Revolutionary War and
would also explain why and how she was uncertain of his service, his place and
time of enlistment, etc. because they had not yet married or even met. To wit,
also included in Catherine's Pension Application is reference to Michael's death
being in Kentucky on "4 June 1836" and that Michael was on the Pension Rolls in
Louisville, KY, at "80 dollars per Annum". The pension for Michael began on
March 30, 1826, and had continued until his death on June 4, 1836.

The children you have listed as being born to Catherine Dillman and husband
Michael Sellers is, by Catherine's sworn account, a bit off. You listed their
children as:

Michael b. 13 May 1774
John George b. 26 April 1776
John b. 1777
Marie Barbara, b. 1779
Mary Barbara, b. 19 May 1785
Philip, b. 27 May 1789
George Sr., b. 1793 or 1794 in Wayne Co.

Catherine listed her surviving 7 children (out of 10) as:

Philip
Michael
Catherine - married to a Perry
Sarah - married to a McDonald
Polly - married to a Shane
Henry
George

Of course, the 1850 Census throws yet another wrench into the works. Philip,
living in Kenton County, KY, and George, living in Huntington County, Indiana,
both stated that they were born in "PA", when it would've been expected for them
to have been born in "KY". George's son, George, Jr., listed his father's place
of birth on the 1880 Census as being in "PA" as well.

It would seem to me that the two differents sets of data in e) and f) for
"Michael Sellers" indicate two different people, but that's only my opinion.
I'm familiar with the data in e) as it mainly comes from information provided by
Catherine (Dillman) Sellers in her Pension Application. None of the info in f)
was recorded in her application and does not seem to reference her husband,
Michael Sellers.

I'm in agreement with your questioning of whether Michael Sellers actually was
the son of Johann Heinrich Zeller and wife Maria Margaret Reith. Michael's
wife, Catherine Dillman, clearly stated in her Pension Application that Michael
"was a native of Germany and came to the United States when very young". This
would clearly imply that Michael was born in Germany and immigrated to the US as
a child. However, the line of his purported father, Johann Heinrich Zeller, was
indeed in the US for at least a generation and thus Michael would've been born
in PA, not Germany. Perhaps Catherine was mistaken in her assertion? Given
that she was 90 years old at the time of her testimony, its reasonable to
consider that she was wrong.

I don't know that we'll ever definitively determine the parents of Michael
Zeller/Sellers who married Catherine Dillman. But, even given the limited of
amount of info we have about his birth and beginnings, I would have to question
whether he was actually the son of Johann Heinrich Zeller and wife Maria
Margaret Reith.

I hope the above is at least a bit helpful in leading you in correct directions
for your research. You have a wealth of good info, and I thank you for sharing.

Ironically,
Michael Sellers

 

________________________________
From: Lee Bruch <lbruch@nwlink.com>
To: sellers@rootsweb.com
Sent: Mon, November 29, 2010 8:11:08 PM
Subject: Re: [SELLERS] GEORGE DILLMAN, son Andrew 1753 to Bracken C o., KY

Here's a long rambling response to Michael Zeller's and Marie from Iowa's queries.

I just recently came into possession of some of my mother's voluminous genealogy notebooks, part of it re the Zeller family. I’m just beginning the process of sorting through them, scanning stuff, verifying the facts, etc. so am interested in information others have.

My lineage traces back per our family’s belief and her notebooks as follows:

Stephen Zeller I (aka Sellaire), b. in Zürich?, d. 1552 in Zürich. One of his children was:

Stephen Zeller II (aka Sellaire), b. ab. 1535 in Zersen, Schaumburg, Kassel Prussia, d. 1606 in Zürich. One of his children was:

Hans Heinrich Zeller (aka Sellaire), b. ab. 1609 in Zürich, d. 1672; he was professor of Sacred Theology at the University of Zürich, the same chair Zwingli held. One of his children was:

Hans Rudolph Zeller (aka Sellaire), b. ab. 1637 in Zürich, d. 1693; he was court preacher at Zweilbrucken Palatine ... at various times in Germany and France. One of his children was:

Jaques Zeller (aka Jacques Sellaire), b. ab. 1660 in Zürich, d. 1709* enroute to America, married ab. 1685 to Clothilde Lady de Valois, b. 1660 in Paris, France, d. 2 Jan 1749 in Stouchsburg, PA. - (Clohtilde's existence is unproven and in dispute) The 2nd of their 8* children was:

Johannes (John George) Zeller, b. 1686 in France, d. 25 Oct 1737* in Tulpenhocken Twp, PA , married in 1712 to Anna Catherina Batdorf, b. 1692 in Palatine, Germany, d. 14 Jan 1749 in Mill Creek Twp., Lebanon, PA. The 6th of their 9 children was:

Johann Heinrich Zeller, b. 1720 in Schoharie NY, d. 1789, married in 1737 to Maria Margeret Reith in Heidelberg Twp, Berks, PA., b. 1721 in Ansberg, Scholarie, NY, d. 1807. The 2nd of their 2 children was:

Michael Sellers, b. 5 May 1747 in Heidelberg Twp., Berks, PA, d. 4 June 1836, married on 20 Dec 1786 in Lebanon Co., Heidleberg Twp PA. to Catherine Heidel Dillman, b. 1763, d. 1860. It is unclear until I sort through, there are some indications that they had they had 7 children:
Michael b. 13 May 1774
John George b. 26 April 1776
John b. 1777
Marie Barbara, b. 1779
Mary Barbara, b. 19 May 1785
Philip, b. 27 May 1789
George Sr., b. 1793 or 1794 in Wayne Co.
See footnote 1 below
There are other indications that they may have had 1 child (George Sr., b. 1793).. both options continue as follows:

George Sellers Sr., b. 1793 in Wayne Co. OH, married on 23 Mar 1813 in Stouchsburg, Berk, PA. to Sophie Hehn, b. abt. 1800 in PA. The 1st of their 6 children was:

George Sellers Jr., b. 1823 in Wayne Co., OH, d. 1895, married Ann Rebecca Staley, b. Apr. 1826 in Marion, Grant Co., IN., d. 1902 in Marion, Grant Co., IN. The 1st of their 8 children was:

Mary Jane (Staley) Bruch, b. 1847 in IN., d. Oct 1898 in Grant Co. IN; on 24 Mar 1868 married William Bruch, b. 1847 in Huntington Co. IN, d. 1921 in Marion, Grant Co. IN.. The 2nd of their 3 children was:

Emro Clinton Bruch, b. 22 Jun 1875 in North Manchester, Wabash Co. IN, d. 26 Sep 1930 in Modesto, CA; on 24 Dec. 1898 married Jessie Hiatt, b. 25 Nov 1878 in Nottingham, Wells Co., IN, d. 5 May 1973 in Paradise, Butte Co., CA. The 5th of their 5 children was my father.

FOOTNOTE 1 re DILLMAN / ZELLER:

Our family has some Dillman's in one of the branches of our Zeller / Seller line, but we have very little info on them except as follows. May or may not be "Marie's" Dillman.

Henry DILLMAN (no other info) father of...

Catherine (Heidel) DILLMAN, b. 1763, d. 4 June 1836, married on 20 Dec 1786 at Berks, Heidelberg Twp, PA (but see item (h) below) to Michael SELLERS / ZELLER (b. 5 May 1747 in Heidelberg Twp. PA, d. Dec. 1824, moved from PA to OH abt 1814-1817). They had 7 children:
Michael b. 13 May 1774
John George b. 26 April 1776
John b. 1777
Marie Barbara, b. 1779
Mary Barbara, b. 19 May 1785
Philip, b. 27 May 1789
George Sr., b. 1793 or 1794 in Wayne Co. OH

The above from info is in notebooks assembled by my mother (deceased) referencing that it was copied from George Seller's diary (held by others in the family still living) dating from when he moved from Wayne Co OH to Indiana.

In those notebooks, are photocopies of much correspondence, including amongst others, each of the following:

(a) formal brief dated 1853 to court in KY and to the US Army Pension dept for Catherine Sellers to receive the revolutionary war pension of her deceased husband Michael

(b) Various sworn affidavits presented in court from people who knew them re his history and revolutionary war background.

(c) There seems to have been some dispute whether Michael had already received his pension by a "bounty land warrant" prior to her application, but she seems to have eventually prevailed. From the affidavits, its seems they were very poor, and since it was specifically mentioned in some of the letters, I'm guessing poor even by frontier standards (or they were playing on the court's heartstrings).

(d) Award of that pension by County Court held at Independence KY on 13 Jan 1853, endorsed by various departments of the army culminating in certificate of pension dated 12 March, 1853

(e) There is some confusion whether he enlisted in Woodstock VA and served in "Captain Crogham's Company of the Eighth Regiment of the Virginia Continental Line under the command of Peter Muchlinberg(?) (writing unclear) or 7(?) years as most of the letters attest, or ...

(f) ... or whether he enlisted in PA or NY and served in "Capt. Jonathan Hallett's Co. in the 2nd Batt'n of New York Forces commanded by Col. Phillip Cortland, per a collection of photocopies of 76 Company Muster and Payroll from the military. (the final "Return" dated Dec 7, 1976 shows him as "inlisted" at "Peeckskill")

(g) Are the Michael Zellers / Sellers in items (e) and (f) the same person or different people? (Incidentally, in various documents from the time the handwritten spelling Zeller and Seller was used interchangeably, even by the same person in the same document.) Our family's historic belief is that he was born in PA to a family that originated in the Palatine (variously under the control of Germany or France), emigrated originally to upstate New York with the Palatines in 1709, thence to Schoharie NY, thence to Berk Co. PA, thence to OH, thence to IN. We have never understood a KY connection. However, given how people wander and move, even then, it's quite conceivable. And see item (h) below:

(h) One of the sworn affidavits of 1853 mentioned in item (b) above contains a clue re the NY / PA / VA / KY connection: To quote: "... (her) husband was a native of Germany and came to the United States when very young and settled with his family in Lancaster Country Pa - that at the breaking out of the Revolutionary War he was in Woodstock, in Shanandoah County, Va, at which place she thinks he enlisted into said Company and Regiment, though she cannot say positively, but thinks if he did not enlist there, he returned to Lancaster County Pa, and then immediately enlisted, though her impression is that he did enlist at Woodstock Va. That we has frequently heard her husband say that he was in the battles of Brandywine, Monmouth and Germantown and that he was also a participant in what he termed the Southern Campaigns. ...." signed, Samuel Hughery, witnessed Samuel Kelley. Comment: the affidavits are by people quite old at the time, many years after the fact ... memories and stories often get embellished or changed or misremembered.

(i) In item (h) its stated that Michael Seller came originally from Germany. But the Zellers of Tulpenhocken, Berks PA are well documented in the US for a generation prior to Michael Zeller being born. Another clue that we're talking about 2 different people? Or did his family speak German after they arrived, and in the mind of his elderly widow and neighbors did that confuse things about where he had been born?

(j) compare above item (h) to item (f) which shows the copies of the original pay and muster rolls showing him being in various places such as Rochester, Peekskill, White Plains, Camp North Castle, Valley Forge (1778), Camp near Morristown, Schenectady, Camp West Point, , Fort Herkimer, etc. It's quite possible that 2 people with the same name have been confused. (In researching my wife's ancestors in Bessarabia and Württemberg Germany in the 1800's we came across 3 generations of people with the same first, last, and middle names from one family and 2 generations of identical names from a another family in the same locales at the same time ... fortunately the German kirchenbuchs and other records helped a few of us untangle that, but it took quite a while.) I suspect this will take some time to untangle too.

Hmmm ... the puzzles of the past ... and I doubt if I could recreate the travels and all my temporary residences of myself in my own youth.



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