Wed, 27 Mar 2002 15:00:21 -0700
Dolly Ziegler <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Subject: Soleni, Solers, Soleys arms (was: Milbourne & Baskerville....)
_The Dictionary of Heraldry_ by Joseph Foster has arms for Averay de
Soleni, Henry de Solers and Richard Soleys; the latter two are
Henry de Solers - (H. III Roll) bore, paly (10) or and azure a bend
gules; St. George Roll.
Andrew, perhaps this description fits the knight at Hope Sollars church
and this would give you the colors. Email me privately if you want
descriptions of the other two blazons.
Foster's book (1902) has been reprinted and is available in many
libraries. Cheers, Dolly in Maryland
On Wed, 27 Mar 2002, Bagpuss & Co.
> Thank you for that - I guess my quest continues. Luckily
> Sollars church, there is a stone coffin lid with a Solers "knight"
> engraved on the top. I'm guessing his shield illustrates the Solers
> coat of arms. I'll e-mail you these seperately if interested.
Can I just interject and throw
something into this discussion pot on the
Sellers Family. (Cousins)!
For that, we all are, according to my info.
I'm not sure if I've posted this here before, but I have a coat of arms
which was hand painted on vellum and presented to me by the gentleman who
did all the heraldic work for the Queen upon the investiture of Charles as
Prince of Wales here in Caernavon.
This gentleman is a professional in what is obviously a dying trade....
His information to me was that I had full title to use this coat of arms as
my own, as, going back into history there only WAS ONE family of Sellers in
the country. The book of arms was collated somwhere in the 1400's. "Our"
coat of arms pre dates this!! WE ARE ONE FAMILY!
Best regards from cousin
Please don't be taken in by this coat of arms nonsense -- we all of
have every right to adopt a symbol of our particular families if we like (I
do too), but let's not pretend that these coats of arms painted and sold at
festivals and through mail order have anything to do with our actual
I am a Buchanan, and have a beautiful Buchanan coat of arms in my home
display it as a symbol of "Buchanan-ness," if you will, but I don't pretend
that it has anything to do with my medieval Buchanan ancestors, who
didn't have a fraction of the social status that the actual Buchanan family
who earned the coat of arms had, and thus I am probably entirely unrelated
Without meaning to offend anyone, this thing about there being only
Sellers family in England prior to the 1400's is absolute nonsense.
like so many names, clearly has an occupational origin, and thus could have
arisen in many unrelated places at the same time. I would love to know of a
reliable documented source that says otherwise.
Again, this message is not meant to offend. I've just seen in my years
genealogy many well-meaning people make claims about "their" coats of arms
which have absolutely no basis in fact whatsoever. Let's not do this here
lead some astray. If you want to display a Sellers coat of arms, fine. It's
beautiful, and a fitting symbol of our heritage, but let's not allow
ourselves to think that its origins really lie with our ancestors. An
excellent book article which explains all this much better than I is Milton
Rubincam's Pitfalls in Genealogical Research (Salt Lake City: Ancestry,
1987), pp. 55-60.
All the best to everyone on the list.
-- Tom Buchanan
Thanks for your efforts. The "Sellers" coat of arms is avail comercially,
was in the US. I have one hanging near me.
It has the Swan above the display of three cups. Cups are silver on reddish
backgroung and silver "level" ^ is between the
cups. This was sold by outfit out of Bath Ohio I think. It is credited to
My ancestors arrived on an English ship but all were German and Soller(s).
You have done a lot of work. Good luck.
Roger Sellers in Las Cruces,NM
Does anyone know which particular Sellers family the Sellers family
belongs too? From what I've read, the family crest is granted to a
family and its passed down through the eldest son. The crest changes
as its passed through each generation. I haven't ever been able to find who
was given this crest. Just wondering. I read an article once that the
crest dealers are somewhat of a scam because they lead people to believe
the crest they sell is for all families of that name. Not so say the
Anyone know the origin of the name? One book I read says the English
name is Anglo-French for "saddler." In French, "Selle" means saddle and
"Seller" means Saddler. I thought that was interesting. I have German
in my line too, not sure of the origin of that name.
Cousin Robert SOLLARS has a crest?coat of arms? on his page
AND I am sending him a copy of this. He maybe has researched this type of
info and can tell/explain to us?
THANKS, marie, iowa
Dear Sellers and all,
I'm getting in a bit late on this but thought I'd add my 2 cents. If
has already been previously covered "please ignore".
Years ago I used to do commissioned Heraldic art and built up a good
collection on the subject, so thought I would look up the SELLERS Coat of
Arms to verify the description given. This description comes from "The
General Armory" by Burke, published in 1884 and found in most libraries.
Though Burke's does give many names and histories of persons receiving
arms, unfortunately it does not mention the name of the individual SELLERS
who received this particular Arms. The only way to possibly find out is for
someone to write the "College of Arms" in London, to see if they have any
information on it. This information may have been lost eons ago, which may
be the reason it does not appear in Burke's. Interestingly, this is the
ONLY Arms listed as being granted to a person by the name of SELLERS (in
this book). Because Arms are granted to individuals, there are often more
than one and sometimes many Arms for persons of a particular last name,
which makes this one easy. "The General Armory" by Burke is not the "final"
word as to who was granted Arms, however. There may possibly be another
SELLERS in another book or more info on this one, if anyone cares to try to
research it. I myself, cannot claim this particular Arms as part of my
personal heritage because; ONE, we don't know who it was granted to and;
TWO, I have not taken my SELLERS line back to Europe, as of yet, as I am a
descendant of Elisha SELLERS. In fact, until it is determined who the
grantee was, I don't think anyone can claim it into their personal lineage.
However, we all certainly can view it as a note of honor that someone of
the name of SELLERS was worthy enough for this honor. Kind of a "general
The Heraldic language originates from the early Norman French and has
maintained many French terms. The Heraldic description reads for the name
SELLERS or SALLERS:
"Gules a chevron between three covered cups argent"
This interprets to mean: A silver(argent) chevron between three silver
covered cups, all on a red (gules) background (shield). In this case the
cups would be triangulated; two above the chevron and one below with the
peak of the chevron pointing upwards.
The crest: "A demi swan, wings endorsed argent"
This interprets to mean: A swan's head and neck rising out of the "torce"
just at the breast line, with detached wings fully endorsed (extended)
rising from the "torce" on either side of the head. See below for "torce"
Jim Sellers was partly correct about the granting of Arms. However,
were not granted to "families", but to individual "heads of families", much
like a medal of honor. However, the whole family and even "allied" families
honored the symbols and colors by often wearing or using them in trapping
to show allegiance to the Arms bearer. This is why many peope mistakenly
believe that a "Coat of Arms" belongs to whole families or lineages. If any
sons wished to use their father's Arms officially, they petition for it and
did not necessarily inherit it. Also, not only the eldest son could
petition the use of the Arms, all the sons down to the ninth could do so.
Symbols called "Marks of Cadency" were allowed up to the ninth son, to
difference their Arms from the father's original. These marks, from the
eldest to the youngest were used during the lifetime of the father and were
as follows: eldest - a Label; second - a Crescent; third - a Mullet (star);
fourth - a Martlet (bird); fifth - an Annulet (a ring); sixth - a
Fleur-de-lis; seventh, a Rose; eight - a Cross Moline (looks like a cross
with serifs); ninth - Double Quatrefoil (looks kind of like a daisy).
Other bits of interest for those who are interested.
The "Coat of Arms" consists strictly of the main shield and the insignia
symbols contained within. There was always one main color and one main
metal; i.e., red/silver; blue/gold; etc., though there could be other
lesser colors and metals in the insignia. The earlier the Arms, the
simpler and more forthright the symbolism. Later Arms that were halved,
quartered, etc. to combine two or more original Arms (denoting a merging or
alliance of families) were exceptions to this rule. This term, "Coat of
arms" does not include the Crest, torce, helmet, or mantle, or any other
ornament outside of the shield. Different countries had different shield
styles, Italian being the most ornate in shape and English the simplest.
Crest - this is the ornament or figure that rests on the torce and sits
atop the helmet - like the "crest of a bird". The earliest Crests often
mirrored symbols from the Arms, but in general, the Crest yields in honor
to none of the Heraldic insignia. It was the emblem that served, when the
banner was wrent asunder and the shield broken, as a rallying point for the
Helmet - the helmet that sits atop the shield. The helmet's styles differed
from country to country and the angle to which the helmet was turned
denoted rank in Royalty.
Mantle - the cloak used to cover the armour to protect the Knight from
elements. The mantle is often depicted as a leafy or shredded fabric
furling out from either side of the Arms. The shredded fabric style was
probably more true to life, as it demonstrated the tears and damage
sustained in battle and betokened a certain evidence of prowess. The leafy
style is simply a more stylized version of the same. The mantle always
showed the main color of the Arms on the outside and the inner lining was
the color of the main metal, gold (yellow) or silver (white) on the inside.
Torce - the twisted scarf or silk attached immediately atop the helmet
which the Crest is bound. The "torce" also bound the mantle to the helmet
much like an Arab Shiek's headdress. It served as an anchor for the Crest.
The twists in the "torce" always alternately showed the main color and main
metal. It is also said that the "torce" was made of two pieces of silk
"twisted together by the Lady who chose the bearer for her Knight."
Hope you found this interesting and useful. There are many books on
Heraldry that can be found in the library if you wish to learn more.
Sincerely, Cindy Kirkland